Sorry to be so long in responding but I have had this on my mind.
So, me "breaking Catholic" when it comes to the filioque has to do with the substance of what I see the issues to be. I don't have the sources at hand, but I've come across a few Orthodox Christians who object to the addition of "and the Son" purely on *how it was added and not on the theology of the phrase itself. But to me if the phrase was simply added to combat heresy, which I believe it was, and came about in this organic way and not in a boastful or forceful way, I don't understand the objection. If you believe what is being said is true, why let a little pride in procedure stop you from speaking the truth to better teach the truth?
To me, the West added the phrase out of a good and honest need and I see no reason to object to that. Sometimes you simply can't wait for a procedure to catch up to the need and I think this was a case of taking good solid action at the appropriate time.
Truly I hate this is a cause of separation at all because it really doesn't seem like it should have caused any problems.
This is really hard, Derek, but also good. I'll be praying for you and Jennifer! Good for you for breaking the ice and her for accompanying you even as you each will have your own discernment. God will lead you both! It is an uncomfortable experience to have to face a change like this with courage, but you are doing it.
As for the three-year-old...man, yeah, it's tough. Just be assured that every Catholic three-year-old has done this in church more than once. I'm sure it was embarrassing, but truly...you and your daughter are welcome!! We all have stories like this. And it's okay to shop around a little bit to find the parish where it is easiest to go with kids :)
I want to say BEEN THERE DONE THAT in the biggest possible letters. Hang in there!
Jennifer -- my husband has sprung stuff like this on me before. (The jerk! Just kidding...sort of...) It has always resolved well in time, and we have grown from it, and even from the conflict in it.
Came here to say exactly this. I wish that there was a way for me to (reverently, lol) give you a glimpse into the toddler “angel chorus” at our average 10:00 Mass... it’s so, so hard when (a) you and your kids aren’t used to the structure of the service and/or (b) there aren’t other toddlers being toddlers. It can feel really, really isolating, even as someone who did grow up in the church. You and your family will be in our prayers, Derek, and please know that you can always reach out if you or Jennifer need support or resources (for y’all or your daughter) or just to vent.
The fruit of having your kids in church with you instead of in a nursery becomes apparent later in parenthood...it's a very different way of doing church than most Protestant churches, for whom the main service can be a break from childcare (which definitely can be a good thing!), but it has its benefits and has important theological roots, too.
Yes! I’ve found a lot of peace in taking the girls now, but so much of that is parish culture more than anything. I can happily take both girls to Mass by myself at the parish where James teaches because we’re never the only family, and the “loudest family” badge only comes around maybe once a month lol. When we go to more of a “glares and stares” type of parish, especially if I go by myself with one/both of them, it’s not uncommon for me to be in tears by the end of Mass. But I also have seen such beautiful fruit from it already in our daughter’s understanding that the Eucharist is Jesus, even if she obviously doesn’t “get it” at 2.5yo. She recently told James when they stopped in for a visit to the Blessed Sacrament, “Daddy, you open your mouth him give you ‘amen’ food!” They’re so observant!
Thank you for the encouragement! We do bring our 3 year old into the sanctuary on Sundays at our Protestant church. I actually spurred on the movement to bring children back into the sanctuary at our old church (UMC)! I think the problem was *where* we attended mass. Our children were the youngest ones there and it seemed like others did not want children to be outside of the “cry room”. (There weren’t many younger families present and the ones that were present were all seated in the cry room.)
Unfortunately we don’t have many parish options to choose from here so if we do wind up going “the Catholic route” we’ll either have to be the youngest family in attendance or we’ll have to travel over an hour to attend.
I’m truthfully not looking forward to either of those options. HA!
Ack, I'm sorry the parish wasn't friendly to children. There are definitely some places like that. It's so silly! But worse than silly, it can make people feel out of place or unwelcome.
(And how neat about your moving kids into the sanctuary at your old church!)
I believe they are still part of the worship service there even after we left! I truly thought I’d receive more pushback than I did but it was welcomed with *mostly* open arms. ;)
This always makes me so upset--cry rooms as default seating are often not in the children’s best interests and can easily become (like you mentioned here) the “please conveniently tuck your kids away” expectation. I love that your heart is for kids being in church--“if the church ain’t crying, it’s dying” as they say.
Praying so much for your discernment. Please tell your wife taking kids to Mass is HARD! I am humbled by them weekly, so she is not alone.
As I was reading I was literally thinking of this interview on Matt Fradds podcast, so I'm glad you found that.
A word of caution from a lifelong Catholic, while the theology is beautiful and rich I have found that our Protestants brothers and sisters are really amazing at hospitality and joy. In my personal experience as a Catholic for 41 years and as someone who worked at a lot of parishes, we Catholics really struggle with this. Don't be discouraged!!! Just know the *feel* of church MIGHT be different. The parish we go to now is very welcoming and warm, so they do exist. Sending so much love and many prayers to you and your sweet wife ❤️
Thank you! As a SAHM, sometimes my only adult interaction is when we go to church and attend small groups. My church family is truly a second family and I feel connected to other adults, specifically women, my age. Unfortunately there aren’t many parishes here to try out and the *feel* of the one we attended was DEFINITELY different! HAHA!
Your wife sounds like a truly wonderful woman, and it sounds like she's handled this bombshell with a huge amount of grace and openness. I'm praying for you both.
Since y'all are starting to live more liturgically, I have a couple book recommendations (these might be more for your wife)...
A Continual Feast by Evelyn Birge Vitz is a cookbook with recipes centered around the seasons of the liturgical year along with a couple short essays about that season. She talks about Orthodox, Catholic, and if memory serves some Protestant traditions as well. It'd probably be a good way to start investigating that aspect of Christianity without it feeling too specifically "Catholic".
The Year and Our Children by Mary Reed Newland is written from a more strictly Catholic perspective, and was written in the late 50s so some suggestions are a little dated (ok, one suggestion for St. Nicholas day is a LOT dated), but it's easy and fun to read. The author takes a very encouraging ,conversational, joyful tone and is very realistic about practicing the faith liturgically with young kids in the house. She also does a fantastic job explaining the "why" behind all these feasts and seasons, and some of her suggestions for observing them have fit our family really well. (And she has suggestions for including Protestant friends in the fun which may or may not be a plus for y'all, I don't know).
I thought of another resource - if you and your littles enjoy crafts, Catholic Icing is a blog that's entirely posts about liturgically themed crafts for the preschool set.
I'm sure I speak for multiple women here when I say I wish we could meet and be some community for you in person. ❤️ I'm praying for you as y'all navigate and discern all this.
I keep a small notebook of prayer intentions with me, and I’m going to write DEREK AND JENNIFER PETTY at the very top of every page. Those who seek, find, my friend. So keep seeking!
This is such a journey and one that can be SO difficult and rewarding. I’m glad you are slowing down and really processing, praying and discerning. I’ll be praying for you!
Also I wish I could have known about you guys attending Mass! I made a mass guide for non-Catholics because my family is not Catholic but would attend for baptisms and first holy communion and I didn’t want them to be lost, confused or uncomfortable. It’s so hard to experience the Mass when you’re so new to it!
I'll be praying for you, man, for sure. I came from a sort-of-similar situation; when I was engaged and we were looking for a church and decided we were interested in Catholicism, I kinda dropped the news on my Pentecostal family without warning, which...did not go well. More than a few tearful conversations. I love that phrase you used at the end, back on solid ground; that's where we are, I think; my mom even gave us a "Saint Every Day" book last Christmas.
At any rate, I will definitely be praying for you and yours, and I hope your RCIA journey goes well!
Man, I can relate to so much of what you are going through.
My wife was/is not interested in discussing theological issues or differences.
She was also not interested in converting to Catholicism when I out of the blue told her I was.
My two year old son was not interested in our first mass and that experience ended worse for us. We didn’t leave and some hateful hag scolded my wife after mass and told us we should have left because he was distracting. After that experience my wife was even less interested in converting.
But three years after that incident we are in RCIA and our whole family will be entering the Church this Easter.
You’re doing exactly what you’re supposed to be doing as a husband and father. Keep seeking the Lord’s direction and keep being patient and gracious with your wife and He will lead you to where you need to be.
It's cool to see your openness! I'm very much not Catholic, for lots of reasons, but I've been getting a lot of mileage out of a book called From Willow Creek to Sacred Heart: Rekindling My Love for Catholicism by Chris Haw. I’d highly recommend it. My wife and I read it together and it was really helpful for us.
All Believers have the Spirit in them, Derek. You are doing right to give the Spirit time to move within you, to speak to you about where you and your family should be. I am trying to filter out a lot of the noise in the world, especially the news because the Spirit moves best when you are quiet and still, open to His voice. God be with you, my friend.
“As a family, we’ve agreed to incorporate more liturgical aspects of Christianity into our home and learn more about the Saints. We agree that much has been lost in our traditions over time and we could only benefit from a closer look at our past. Individually, I have decided to take a breath and give myself more space and time to decide on these things...”.
There is much wisdom in these few sentences Derek. Our family has been on a 10 year journey that ultimately led us into the Orthodox Church. Along the way, a very wise person told me, “don’t be in a hurry to change; the Holy Spirit will change you at the right times, in the right ways, as you continue to follow Christ and seek to do the Father’s Will”. Those words were spot on. True transformation is a slow burn.
Prayers for you and your family! May your journey be blessed.
Oh boy... the revelation that Daniel has a twin sent me over here, and while I'm amused at the mental image of you two getting a 'thumbs up' during Mass, my heartstrings are also pulled to hear about the bumps in the road you're experiencing. I get it. Our house is in a different sort of situation, but I understand what it's like to be on a different path from your spouse in such a new way, and it requires the grace of God. Thankfully, that grace is super-abundant!
Please know that I've added your family to my prayer list, Derek. Peace and all good to you, brother!
Sorry to be so long in responding but I have had this on my mind.
So, me "breaking Catholic" when it comes to the filioque has to do with the substance of what I see the issues to be. I don't have the sources at hand, but I've come across a few Orthodox Christians who object to the addition of "and the Son" purely on *how it was added and not on the theology of the phrase itself. But to me if the phrase was simply added to combat heresy, which I believe it was, and came about in this organic way and not in a boastful or forceful way, I don't understand the objection. If you believe what is being said is true, why let a little pride in procedure stop you from speaking the truth to better teach the truth?
To me, the West added the phrase out of a good and honest need and I see no reason to object to that. Sometimes you simply can't wait for a procedure to catch up to the need and I think this was a case of taking good solid action at the appropriate time.
Truly I hate this is a cause of separation at all because it really doesn't seem like it should have caused any problems.
Praying for you, Derek!
This is really hard, Derek, but also good. I'll be praying for you and Jennifer! Good for you for breaking the ice and her for accompanying you even as you each will have your own discernment. God will lead you both! It is an uncomfortable experience to have to face a change like this with courage, but you are doing it.
As for the three-year-old...man, yeah, it's tough. Just be assured that every Catholic three-year-old has done this in church more than once. I'm sure it was embarrassing, but truly...you and your daughter are welcome!! We all have stories like this. And it's okay to shop around a little bit to find the parish where it is easiest to go with kids :)
I want to say BEEN THERE DONE THAT in the biggest possible letters. Hang in there!
Jennifer -- my husband has sprung stuff like this on me before. (The jerk! Just kidding...sort of...) It has always resolved well in time, and we have grown from it, and even from the conflict in it.
Came here to say exactly this. I wish that there was a way for me to (reverently, lol) give you a glimpse into the toddler “angel chorus” at our average 10:00 Mass... it’s so, so hard when (a) you and your kids aren’t used to the structure of the service and/or (b) there aren’t other toddlers being toddlers. It can feel really, really isolating, even as someone who did grow up in the church. You and your family will be in our prayers, Derek, and please know that you can always reach out if you or Jennifer need support or resources (for y’all or your daughter) or just to vent.
Sara, once again we are on. the. same. page.
The fruit of having your kids in church with you instead of in a nursery becomes apparent later in parenthood...it's a very different way of doing church than most Protestant churches, for whom the main service can be a break from childcare (which definitely can be a good thing!), but it has its benefits and has important theological roots, too.
Yes! I’ve found a lot of peace in taking the girls now, but so much of that is parish culture more than anything. I can happily take both girls to Mass by myself at the parish where James teaches because we’re never the only family, and the “loudest family” badge only comes around maybe once a month lol. When we go to more of a “glares and stares” type of parish, especially if I go by myself with one/both of them, it’s not uncommon for me to be in tears by the end of Mass. But I also have seen such beautiful fruit from it already in our daughter’s understanding that the Eucharist is Jesus, even if she obviously doesn’t “get it” at 2.5yo. She recently told James when they stopped in for a visit to the Blessed Sacrament, “Daddy, you open your mouth him give you ‘amen’ food!” They’re so observant!
Thank you for the encouragement! We do bring our 3 year old into the sanctuary on Sundays at our Protestant church. I actually spurred on the movement to bring children back into the sanctuary at our old church (UMC)! I think the problem was *where* we attended mass. Our children were the youngest ones there and it seemed like others did not want children to be outside of the “cry room”. (There weren’t many younger families present and the ones that were present were all seated in the cry room.)
Unfortunately we don’t have many parish options to choose from here so if we do wind up going “the Catholic route” we’ll either have to be the youngest family in attendance or we’ll have to travel over an hour to attend.
I’m truthfully not looking forward to either of those options. HA!
Ack, I'm sorry the parish wasn't friendly to children. There are definitely some places like that. It's so silly! But worse than silly, it can make people feel out of place or unwelcome.
(And how neat about your moving kids into the sanctuary at your old church!)
I believe they are still part of the worship service there even after we left! I truly thought I’d receive more pushback than I did but it was welcomed with *mostly* open arms. ;)
This always makes me so upset--cry rooms as default seating are often not in the children’s best interests and can easily become (like you mentioned here) the “please conveniently tuck your kids away” expectation. I love that your heart is for kids being in church--“if the church ain’t crying, it’s dying” as they say.
Praying so much for your discernment. Please tell your wife taking kids to Mass is HARD! I am humbled by them weekly, so she is not alone.
As I was reading I was literally thinking of this interview on Matt Fradds podcast, so I'm glad you found that.
A word of caution from a lifelong Catholic, while the theology is beautiful and rich I have found that our Protestants brothers and sisters are really amazing at hospitality and joy. In my personal experience as a Catholic for 41 years and as someone who worked at a lot of parishes, we Catholics really struggle with this. Don't be discouraged!!! Just know the *feel* of church MIGHT be different. The parish we go to now is very welcoming and warm, so they do exist. Sending so much love and many prayers to you and your sweet wife ❤️
Thank you! As a SAHM, sometimes my only adult interaction is when we go to church and attend small groups. My church family is truly a second family and I feel connected to other adults, specifically women, my age. Unfortunately there aren’t many parishes here to try out and the *feel* of the one we attended was DEFINITELY different! HAHA!
Praying for you and Jennifer!
Your wife sounds like a truly wonderful woman, and it sounds like she's handled this bombshell with a huge amount of grace and openness. I'm praying for you both.
Since y'all are starting to live more liturgically, I have a couple book recommendations (these might be more for your wife)...
A Continual Feast by Evelyn Birge Vitz is a cookbook with recipes centered around the seasons of the liturgical year along with a couple short essays about that season. She talks about Orthodox, Catholic, and if memory serves some Protestant traditions as well. It'd probably be a good way to start investigating that aspect of Christianity without it feeling too specifically "Catholic".
The Year and Our Children by Mary Reed Newland is written from a more strictly Catholic perspective, and was written in the late 50s so some suggestions are a little dated (ok, one suggestion for St. Nicholas day is a LOT dated), but it's easy and fun to read. The author takes a very encouraging ,conversational, joyful tone and is very realistic about practicing the faith liturgically with young kids in the house. She also does a fantastic job explaining the "why" behind all these feasts and seasons, and some of her suggestions for observing them have fit our family really well. (And she has suggestions for including Protestant friends in the fun which may or may not be a plus for y'all, I don't know).
Again, prayers for you both. ❤️
Thank you! I will look these up!
You're welcome! I hope they're helpful.
I thought of another resource - if you and your littles enjoy crafts, Catholic Icing is a blog that's entirely posts about liturgically themed crafts for the preschool set.
I'm sure I speak for multiple women here when I say I wish we could meet and be some community for you in person. ❤️ I'm praying for you as y'all navigate and discern all this.
I keep a small notebook of prayer intentions with me, and I’m going to write DEREK AND JENNIFER PETTY at the very top of every page. Those who seek, find, my friend. So keep seeking!
This is such a journey and one that can be SO difficult and rewarding. I’m glad you are slowing down and really processing, praying and discerning. I’ll be praying for you!
Also I wish I could have known about you guys attending Mass! I made a mass guide for non-Catholics because my family is not Catholic but would attend for baptisms and first holy communion and I didn’t want them to be lost, confused or uncomfortable. It’s so hard to experience the Mass when you’re so new to it!
I'll be praying for you, man, for sure. I came from a sort-of-similar situation; when I was engaged and we were looking for a church and decided we were interested in Catholicism, I kinda dropped the news on my Pentecostal family without warning, which...did not go well. More than a few tearful conversations. I love that phrase you used at the end, back on solid ground; that's where we are, I think; my mom even gave us a "Saint Every Day" book last Christmas.
At any rate, I will definitely be praying for you and yours, and I hope your RCIA journey goes well!
Man, I can relate to so much of what you are going through.
My wife was/is not interested in discussing theological issues or differences.
She was also not interested in converting to Catholicism when I out of the blue told her I was.
My two year old son was not interested in our first mass and that experience ended worse for us. We didn’t leave and some hateful hag scolded my wife after mass and told us we should have left because he was distracting. After that experience my wife was even less interested in converting.
But three years after that incident we are in RCIA and our whole family will be entering the Church this Easter.
You’re doing exactly what you’re supposed to be doing as a husband and father. Keep seeking the Lord’s direction and keep being patient and gracious with your wife and He will lead you to where you need to be.
The way I phrased it to Derek was: “God loves me just as much Baptist as he does Catholic!” HAHA
I’ll never say never— who knows.. I may eventually convert. 🤷🏻♀️
It's cool to see your openness! I'm very much not Catholic, for lots of reasons, but I've been getting a lot of mileage out of a book called From Willow Creek to Sacred Heart: Rekindling My Love for Catholicism by Chris Haw. I’d highly recommend it. My wife and I read it together and it was really helpful for us.
I’ll check it out. Thank you!
All Believers have the Spirit in them, Derek. You are doing right to give the Spirit time to move within you, to speak to you about where you and your family should be. I am trying to filter out a lot of the noise in the world, especially the news because the Spirit moves best when you are quiet and still, open to His voice. God be with you, my friend.
“As a family, we’ve agreed to incorporate more liturgical aspects of Christianity into our home and learn more about the Saints. We agree that much has been lost in our traditions over time and we could only benefit from a closer look at our past. Individually, I have decided to take a breath and give myself more space and time to decide on these things...”.
There is much wisdom in these few sentences Derek. Our family has been on a 10 year journey that ultimately led us into the Orthodox Church. Along the way, a very wise person told me, “don’t be in a hurry to change; the Holy Spirit will change you at the right times, in the right ways, as you continue to follow Christ and seek to do the Father’s Will”. Those words were spot on. True transformation is a slow burn.
Prayers for you and your family! May your journey be blessed.
My prayers are with you as you discern. 🙏🏻
Oh boy... the revelation that Daniel has a twin sent me over here, and while I'm amused at the mental image of you two getting a 'thumbs up' during Mass, my heartstrings are also pulled to hear about the bumps in the road you're experiencing. I get it. Our house is in a different sort of situation, but I understand what it's like to be on a different path from your spouse in such a new way, and it requires the grace of God. Thankfully, that grace is super-abundant!
Please know that I've added your family to my prayer list, Derek. Peace and all good to you, brother!